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Barbara Cast & Crew
Fate or Free Will?Does everything happen for a reason, or is that some dumb excuse?

I vote free will.

It happened because you are careless.
#1  Posted 6 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote  |  + 4 Cool
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ThinkBigger
A lot of it's free will but to me some part of me thinks that there some greater force out there, I don't know if it's God or what but things happen and I think it's more than coincidence.
#1,681  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
xita
I say free will. If everything happened for a purpose, and my life was all planned out, there wouldn't really be a reason for life.
#1,682  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
ChaosAD
Everything is fate.

Now for my quantum spin...

You cannot break the fundamental rules of physics for this universe. Every choice you come across as a finite, though massive number of decisions, and thus a finite number of consequences. Considering that the probability density function of all choices/outcomes is populated prior to the decision, and then collapses to a delta function after the decision, there are essentially no "unknown" possibilities. If one could escape the laws of physics, where collapse of the wavefunction resulted in a new, uncorrelated wavefunction, then we would have free will. But since this would violate fundamental laws of physics, free will cannot exist.
#1,683  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote  |  + 1 Ditto
Yoming
what people don't understand about free will is that they are trying to explain something (the belief that they have free will) by invoking something far more complicated (free will itself). like trying to explain the world by invoking god, or explaining sexuality by invoking love. some of the poeple posting no doubt believ in god and love, or a god who loves them. this might make them feel better, but it has no impact whatsoever on the truth value of such claims.

william james, on the subject of free will, said all experience was for it and all evidence against it. people post non sequitirs like, "i believe in free will." they don't realize that they've been trained to think just that. that isn't to say i havent been conditioned as well. one parrot tells the truth, one parrot lies, niether have understanding. but one still lies. if you believe in free will so strongly, use your conviction to a good end and come up with some evidence, demonstrate that intention precedes action. best of luck.
#1,684  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
Yoming
In reply to CJDimebar, #1680:

In reply to CJDimebar, #1680:
I support soft determinism... Ultimately, what you do with your life is your choice...

that's exactly my point. some lives are built with such a paltry selection of choice, the child soldier, the second-generation prostitute, etc. does freedom, of will and otherwise, exist for some and not for others? the argument could be made, and convincingly. but i'd argue that some of us have the luxury of the illusion of freedom, and others are born under the harsh light of the truth, that "certain uncontrollable factors" are all life is for some us, and that it is the height of arrogance to assume that what we experience, our degree of "choice" is shared by the rest of humanity.
#1,685  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote  |  + 1 Ditto
Yoming
In reply to xita, #1682:
I say free will. If everything happened for a purpose, and my life was all planned out, there wouldn't really be a reason for life.

you are presupposing two things: one, that free will must exist to give life reason; two, that life must have a reason. what is the sole reason life exists is to decrease entropy in the universe? better yet, what if it has no reason at all? if we suppose correctly that the universe is thirteen billion years old, and we also suppose that we, as a planet, are alone among the living, then the universe spent better than half its existence lifeless. likewise, if all life ended, here and elsewhere, the universe would resume lifelessness. would that have a reason?
#1,686  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
argzombies
I vote for free will. Nothing as powerful as predetermined fate would ever be awarded to such humble creatures as we - as the great Carl Sagan said, we are but that tiny mote of dust in the Universe. Whatever we do is lost within history the second it happens.
#1,687  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
Yoming
In reply to argzombies, #1687:

so you think we have the freedom to do anything, but it is ultimately pointless? why even bother defending free will if you're defending the freedom to be a fatalist? people accuse me of being dour because i don't believe in freedom. but i hold a utiliterian stance on the purpose of life, even my own. if life was meaningless, it would have no important outcome, which is different from saying, "we give our lives purpose." if that were occassionally true, it certainly isn't the case for everyone. if you honestly think all of this is meaningless, why post in the first place?

don't hand me an off-the-cuff sagan quote, either. i reject your appeal to authority, not on the grounds that i'm smarter than sagan, but on the grounds that if you didn't have a vested interest in the conversation, you wouldn't have bothered with the quote at all. memes are the answer to this problem: you have the memes of free will and carl sagan in your brain, and the purpose of you has been co-opted by these memes in an attempt to convince "me" to follow suit. i think there's more to us than that, but even if that were all that was happening, that in itself is a crude, mechanical purpose that leaves the universe and its contents fundementally different. your point lies in ruin.
#1,688  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
argzombies
In reply to Yoming, #1688:

ohoho you think my knowledge comes from memes? that is below the belt, my friend, even for a dolphin blowing a smoke ring. I quoted Carl Sagan, because it is simply true. Our meaning of life is much the same as any other species, don't categorize me as a 'fatalist'! we are born to breed. that is our purpose to enrich our species. to say we do not have free will is to create a purpose for every remotely living thing in this universe
#1,689  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote  |  + 1 Funny
argzombies
In reply to Yoming, #1688:

and, also, how dare you attempt to defeat my opinion with your hypocritical stance. I'm trying to ruin your argument in one, insignificant blow? - the same to you, for you are all words and no logic
#1,690  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
ace2ace Sponsor
I believe we have the ability to make our own choices; and we do make our own choices on a daily basis. But we are also a product of our environment - (more on this later). Ultimately we make a decision and whatever consequence comes of it is our fate. Continuing from that, I believe that fate is merely consequences of our actions.

Why do I believe this? Well lets look at argzombies - he goes to a class and, at the end of the term, gets an A on it. Was it his fate to get an A in the class? If argzombies studied 20 hours a week for the class and worked very hard for every grade then one could argue, "Yes. It was his fate to pull an A in the class." But how does the word 'fate' make any sense since his A was merely a consequence of his choice: to study really hard for the class.

Now lets say argzombies happened to actually pull a C in the class but the professor liked him for some reason - the professor chose to bump argzombies to an A in the class. Was it argzombies fate to get an A in the class? No the professor choose to give him a better grade. All argzombies did was show the professor he was working hard. Or maybe argzombies got confused with another student, I don't know.

Ultimately the idea people have of Fate, while a nice bit of ancient folklore of Kings and Queens, really doesn't make sense in this modern day and age. Fate isn't what defines a man; because if that's the case then it is my fate to be the bloody King of the world and oppress everyone while you all just smile and say thank you. No! Merely here is a new way of thinking about fate:

Fate is how people perceive the consequences of a persons actions and how they pass judgement on it.

That is all!!!

Also argzombies - my apologize for using your name. You happened to be the first person, besides Barbara, that I saw on the site.

P.S.: yoming #1688 - your entire post is an exercise of free will. whether you like it or not, you choose to make post #1688. No one held a gun up to your head and said, "Write these things or something terrible will happen to you." You merely expressed you opinion to the best of you abilities - THAT'S FREE WILL!!!!
#1,691  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote  |  + 1 Zing!
argzombies
In reply to ace2ace, #1691:

congrats dude, first person to earn my Zing! ;)
#1,692  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote  |  + 1 Ditto
Blt3200
I think that everything is not Pre determined. I think if you say drive into a pole and wreck your car its not because fate pre determined that you will hit that pole and nothing you could have done would prevent you from hitting it. It's because of you were not paying attention and it was your actions at that very point that caused it.

I think that saying something was determined by fate is implying were are all being led by the nose by some invisible force that we can not break free of, and no matter what we do it will not matter because it is all pre determined.

Thats just silly.

We are the masters of our own destiny and our lives are not so much pre written but constantly being written in as soon as we do it and not a second before.
#1,693  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
Yoming
In reply to ace2ace, #1691:

niether this post, my previous post, nor any other human action is proof of free will. when i say what i say, it is a gag reflex to your misunderstamding of what i am debating here. I could no more control my need to respond then you could decide to cease protein synthesis. I dont want to waste my time responding to this. the memes that control my brain do, however. Plus one zing indeed
#1,694  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
argzombies
In reply to Yoming, #1694:

is suicide free will?
#1,695  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
Yoming
In reply to argzombies, #1689:
In reply to Yoming, #1688:

to say we do not have free will is to create a purpose for every remotely living thing in this universe

wut?

In reply to argzombies, #1690:
In reply to Yoming, #1688:

and, also, how dare you attempt to defeat my opinion with your hypocritical stance. I'm trying to ruin your argument in one, insignificant blow? - the same to you, for you are all words and no logic

do or do not. there is no try.

In reply to argzombies, #1692:
In reply to ace2ace, #1691:

congrats dude, first person to earn my Zing! ;)

should i leave you two alone so you can zing each other
#1,696  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
Yoming
albert camus thought so. but i do not. I think suicide is a result of a meme(s) that inadvertenly kills the host brain.
#1,697  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
argzombies
In reply to Yoming, #1697:

so, say if i chose to kill myself right now, would that be through my own thought pattern, or would that be predetermined? i don't really understand your argument, or your use of 'memes' - are you contesting free will within society or as a concept?
#1,698  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
ace2ace Sponsor
In reply to Yoming, #1697:

I think it is great, Yoming, that you are so knowledgeable on the subject and that you have many sources to defend your arguements. And yoming if what you are saying is true in post #1697 then I say this: "MONKEY, ORANGE, EAGLE!!!!!"

Don't you dare use the podcast as a source and try to reword it. And don't take me, or anyone else here, for a fool. On a personal note - I will call you out if I suspect there is B.S. going on and/or I feel like you are dodging the issue. And in your past posts you seem to do it quite a bit.

You claim in post #1694 that it is a gag-reflex but the truth is you are reacting to what I posted while trying to save face. Your posts are a reaction to what we, the users of this site, have be posting. Every time we say something that peeks your interest (for better or worse) you respond to that action with a reaction (posting a reply). That is human nature, it is instinct. Here is the difference between your action and my reaction - you choose to (unintentionally) piss me off by trying to bring Human Nature and Instinct into a post about Free Will. I willingly choose to call you out on what you are doing.

I cannot defend Randomness (your posts) or Human Nature. Those are two different arguments in-and-of-themselves. Please, in future posts, stay on topic. I understand you are against Free-Will, that isn't my issue, but when someone asks a question don't dodge it with, "it's a gag-reflex" or "wut?" Just answer the question without trying to dance around it - you aren't a politician in the senate/parliament. Your a user on RoosterTeeth.com

edit: @argzombies - (i almost forgot why I started writing, hahaha). Yes, it is a persons choice to kill themselves. As much as it sucks to hear... if someone believes they they have nothing of value in there lives then they will get it in there head that death is a better alternative than living. It is a crappy way of thinking for any human being but, ultimately, it is there choice if they want to end there lives.

@ChaosAD - you are right. You can't break the rules of the universe that are established. Does this mean we are without free will? No. It just means that there are some unfortunate rules we have to follow. It also means we have to create a few workarounds. If the laws of physics were all set in stone then Quantum Theory, Space, Flight, and many other advances throughout the millennium would not be possible; and we wouldn't be typing on a PC today if we just rolled over and said, "Well this is all we can do because physics says this is all we can do."

Also while I agree that every situation has a finite set of choices this does not mean that you don't have a right to choose. As much as I hate admitting this, there are only so many decisions a person can make about a certain situation. And there are fewer 'good' decisions to be made. But if you stop and think about what your actions are trying to accomplish and you consider the results of your actions then you are exercising Free-Will. You are just merely exercising it within a very tight set of circumstances.

Post edited 4/02/12 9:10PM
#1,699  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote  |  + 1 Ditto
Blt3200
In reply to ace2ace, #1699:

AMEN
Off topic: wasn't it "SWORD, MONKEY, EAGLE" or was that gavin who messed it up?
#1,700  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote  |  + 1 Ditto
Yoming
In reply to ace2ace, #1699:

i'll take this a little at a time, since your wall-o-text deserves some patience. i started to reply last night, but i had other obligations that i couldn't turn down...
In reply to Yoming, #1697:

I think it is great, Yoming, that you are so knowledgeable on the subject


thanks, right back at ya
and that you have many sources to defend your arguements. And yoming if what you are saying is true in post #1697 then I say this: "MONKEY, ORANGE, EAGLE!!!!!"

Don't you dare use the podcast as a source and try to reword it. And don't take me, or anyone else here, for a fool.

so in trying to be original and random, you fell back on a varitation of a quote? geez, ya got me...
On a personal note - I will call you out if I suspect there is B.S. going on and/or I feel like you are dodging the issue. And in your past posts you seem to do it quite a bit.

let's not make this personal. feel free to do the wolf biltzer thing a "keep me honest." but don't get so heated. the point of a forum is conversation. would you prefer i agree with you blithely?
You claim in post #1694 that it is a gag-reflex but the truth is you are reacting to what I posted...

memes in competition cause their hosts to react in their defense. there's only so much space in a host brain, so competition can get savage.
...while trying to save face.


reputation is also a meme. but it's one i don't have any concern over. my face is safe behind this internet.
Your posts are a reaction to what we, the users of this site, have be posting.

he has come. behold the OP.
Every time we say something that peeks your interest (for better or worse) you respond to that action with a reaction (posting a reply). That is human nature, it is instinct. Here is the difference between your action and my reaction - you choose to (unintentionally) piss me off by trying to bring Human Nature...

i never said the phrase "human nature" because i think it's a meaningless phrase. you, however, used it one sentence ago...
I cannot defend Randomness (your posts) or Human Nature. Those are two different arguments in-and-of-themselves.

did you mean you can't defend randomness, your that your argument had no defense against it? what i'm proposing isn't so much random, but i can see how you got there. a purposeless process, like evolution, can give rise to a purpose-searching (purpose-finding/purpose-making?) medium, like life. you and i, fellow users and potential senators/members of parliment, are examples of life. but i think our thoughts, which exist outside of our bodies in this forum and compete, in your case for dominance, also exhibit signs of life.
It is a crappy way of thinking for any human being but, ultimately, it is there choice if they want to end there lives.

there's a separate debate to be had on this, which is totall off-topic, about sane suicidal persons...
ChaosAD - you are right. You can't break the rules of the universe that are established. Does this mean we are without free will? No.

"Well this is all we can do because physics says this is all we can do."

the positition you parody is mine. free means without constraint. if you are a slave to physics, is it possible you're enslaved by other forces?
As much as I hate admitting this, there are only so many decisions a person can make about a certain situation. And there are fewer 'good' decisions to be made.

that was my point entirely! when you put good in quotation marks, you're imply that good and bad are in competition!
But if you stop and think about what your actions are trying to accomplish and you consider the results of your actions then you are exercising Free-Will. You are just merely exercising it within a very tight set of circumstances.

see, you lost me. are you familiar with dennett's tower? i'll post a link: here
#1,701  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
Yoming
In reply to argzombies, #1698:

im contesting it as a concept. if it exists in society, i don't see any evidence for it.
#1,702  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
argzombies
In reply to Yoming, #1702:

I would agree with you in the sense that we live in a society and culture that has restriction at its root - the concept of law and conduct is a censorship in whatever sense of the word.

However, I believe that humans have and practice free will in their own individuality. Compared to the world as a whole, perhaps few would ever be seen apart, but on the ground level, we do things every day that we chose to do and carry out based on our own desires and thoughts.
#1,703  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
WilfredNguye
i would say we have free will and thats mostly because we think, therefore we make choices which also means that we can deviate from a 'normal' choice that we would ordinarily make. just by being human we allow the chance of contradictory choices to be made that are outside the 'predetermined' choices.
#1,704  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
UlfvarrOT
I answered a question like this on another forum a little while ago... I broke it down like this.
I believe that there can only be one universe, or an infinite number of them. I believe this because The universe can only be finite once, or infinite. Everything has one life and one death, they always live, or they never live. If this is true, then Everything is either constant, or finite, once. I don't believe in a number of dimensions because that would mean there are a numbered set of universes. If it's the universe, shouldn't it mean everything? So can there be 26 everythings? There could, but I find it unlikely.
If that holds true, then there is either an infinite number of universes, or there is only one. I say infinite because I believe that our lives are determined by chance. There's a chance I may have not written this post, but I chose to. There's a chance I didn't run at a guy during my LARP practice today and end up tackling a tree, but it happened.
I'm going to try to say this as clearly as I can, but it's probably going to get pretty confusing. If our lives are in fact determined by chance, then what happens if I make a choice in our universe? Would the scenario of another choice happen in a separate universe? Let's say you're rolling a die. There are six possibilities on a standard die. First, you roll a 2, then you roll a 4, then you roll a 5, then you roll a 3. Those are all different turnouts of the same scenario. But what if the scenario changes? What if you're rolling a 12- sided die? then the entire scenario changes.
Same thing with the universe. If something happens on universe A, perhaps the opposite happens on universe B, and something somewhat inbetween on universe C, and something else in universe D, and so on. But what if a previous decision set a completely different scenario in motion? For example, what if I decided not to go to LARP practice? then there is an entirely new set of decisions that have to happen.
This doesn't just affect humans, we can break this down with animals as well. What kills and eats another animal, what animal successfully defends itself against another animal, and so on. It would go so far as to where a blade of grass grows in a field. All of these chances, no matter how big or small, affect the space time continuum.
If this is true, then there would have to be an infinite number of universes that play out all of those chances. Maybe one would be the exact same as ours, everything happens in life in that universe the exact same as it does in this one, except for a tree grew two feet to the left in one universe versus the other one. It could be as small as that, but it would still require an entirely new universe because that altered chance can and will alter other chances in the past as well as the future, and those chances will continue to affect one another in different ways, and so on and so forth.
It's either that, or there is only one universe. This single universe, that would literally encompass everything, would have to be controlled completely by some type of cosmic force that pre-determined everything. it's existence, what it is, what happened in this time, in this location, etc. Whether it be God, or whether it be another type of cosmic force. If this were true, then there would be no free will, and we would have our choices laid out for us. We may think that we have free will, but in reality, we wouldn't. We would think that we have free will because God isn't going to hand you a map and schedule and say (at this time, you're going to do this.) But your path will be pre-determined.
If the universe is singular. Then there is a single path you take, and truly, nothing else really matters.

Again, I want to note that I don't research this stuff, so I could be completely wrong. I don't read about quantum, I don't read about universes, etc. This all was just a train of thought that I typed as I was thinking, so flaming me for what I say will just be retarded.
#1,705  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
Chi_Mangetsu EmEffin TRex
Good god, what is with you new people and walls of text?
#1,706  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote  |  + 2 Funny
Yoming
In reply to UlfvarrOT, #1705:


Again, I want to note that I don't research this stuff, so I could be completely wrong. I don't read about quantum, I don't read about universes, etc. This all was just a train of thought that I typed as I was thinking, so flaming me for what I say will just be retarded.

if you want to start reading somewhere, this thread would be a good place to start. you dont have to read the last fifty pages, but we've been pretty exhaustive.
#1,707  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
ColemanHelge
I believe that life is a mix of fate and free will. Kind of like what Forest Gump said at the end of the movie. But at the same time I also believe that there is a force at work much greater than ourselves and much greater than god. Kind of like the force except it's not so science fictiony... Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of the force, but we don't live in a galaxy far far away, nor is it a long time ago. We are in the here and now.
In summation, people make choices of there own free will, each choice makes a ripple in the universe, sends out energy through out the cosmos. There's only one thing for that energy to do and that is to come back, either with reward or repercussion.
The universe and everything it contains is made of the same energy and will return to being the same energy one day. Life is free will, with fate guiding your choices.
#1,708  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
argzombies
In reply to ColemanHelge, #1708:

So essentially you believe in a form of Karma?

I'm still quite happy existing as an entity which just so happened to come into life on a ball of rock and water, lost within the vastness of space. I don't think there needs to be any higher power or for there to be any meaning in it all, just a cycle of life that has outgrown its basic function of instincts.
#1,709  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote  |  + 1 Ditto
Yoming
i dont understand how so many of you can say, "a mix of fate and free will."

if you find out that there's a limitation on your will, which you regard as so sanctimonious, in what way is it free? it smacks of the same logicality as, "a mix of free and expensive..."
#1,710  Posted 2 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
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